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Forum for Norsk Slektshistorisk Forening 2014-04-14T21:54:39+02:00 NSF-forum
Updated: 2 timer 24 min siden

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

14. April 2014 - 20:59
Geirr I. Leistad skrev:
Konsekvensen av forumets språkregler må vel da bli at dersom jeg starter en debatt på fx akkadisk, sanskrit eller gotisk, må debattantene svare på samme språk?

Slik jeg ser det, står det enhver fritt å starte «en debatt på fx akkadisk, sanskrit eller gotisk», men jeg tror ikke det vil komme særlig mange svar. Dermed begrenser språkvalget seg selv uten at vi trenger å lage noe stivbent regelverk rundt det. Det bør etter min mening være legitimt å poste på engelsk, som de fleste i Norge med en smule utdannelse behersker noenlunde brukbart.

Geirr I. Leistad skrev:
Jeg vil foreslå at reglene endres dithen at et av de skandinaviske språkene kan aksepteres og at debattantene står fritt til å benytte sitt skandinviske morsmål.

Forumreglene ble i hovedtrekk skrevet av NSFs leder Rune Nedrud, og en såvidt drastisk endring i politikken som du foreslår bør eventuelt komme som resultat av et vedtak i NSFs styre.

Statistikk: Skrevet Leif B. Kristensen — 14 Apr 2014 20:59

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

14. April 2014 - 20:31
Konsekvensen av forumets språkregler må vel da bli at dersom jeg starter en debatt på fx akkadisk, sanskrit eller gotisk, må debattantene svare på samme språk? Jeg vil foreslå at reglene endres dithen at et av de skandinaviske språkene kan aksepteres og at debattantene står fritt til å benytte sitt skandinviske morsmål. Det må vel også forutsettes de som er seriøst opptatt av skandinavisk middelaldergenealogi, dessuten er så noenlunde fortrolig med språket i kildene - i det minste norrønt og mellomnorsk, om ikke akkurat lavtysk eller latin. Det kan vel gjøres unntak om noen av gode grunner velger å fremme en konkret problemstilling eller komme med et spørsmål på et fremmedspråk som nordmenn flest formodes å beherske?

Salve, Geirr

Statistikk: Skrevet Geirr I. Leistad — 14 Apr 2014 20:31

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

14. April 2014 - 16:31
Geirr I. Leistad skrev:
By the way, is not this forum intended to be in Norwegian language?


Forumreglene sier bare dette om språk:

«Så langt som det er mulig, skal du svare på samme språk som debattstarter. Hvis du er usikker på dine språkferdigheter, kan du sende innlegget inn på norsk og be om at noen andre oversetter. Dansk og svensk er unntatt herfra.»

Det er altså fullt tillatt å skrive på andre språk enn norsk, selv om det naturligvis er en fordel å benytte et språk som andre deltakere behersker. Det må antas at de fleste deltakerne her til en viss grad behersker engelsk.

I do not find it meaningful to translate this, as I consider it as a prerequisite that participants in this forum understand some basic written Norwegian.

Statistikk: Skrevet Leif B. Kristensen — 14 Apr 2014 16:31

Middelalderforum • Re: Munk'erne av Gudbrandsdalen.

14. April 2014 - 15:59
Tore Vigerust har på sin nettside i hvertfall gjengitt hele Nysteds våpenbok (feilaktig kalt Rostgaards norske våpenbok), samt i det minste delvis en våpenbokkopi besørget av Henning Sollied, visstnok etter det han kaller "en gammel norsk våpenbok" i Genealogisk-heraldisk samling. Hva signaturene skal bety, aner jeg ikke, og Vigerust har ikke noen opplysninger i så måte. Nysteds våpenbok bygger på materiale innsamlet i Norge, hovedsaklig segl under diplomer, men også skjold, gravsteiner, våpenmalerier etc.. Dette er grovt misforstått av Vigerust. Den såkalte Hirtzholms våpenbok "Insignia quaedam virorum etc." er ikke annet en en alfabetisert og annotert kopi av Nystedts våpenbok, besørget av Nysted selv - det er samme hand. Klevenfeldts norske våpenbok er igjen en kopi av Hirtzholm, men det er ikke den eneste. Schønning har i hvertfall etterlatt 2 versjoner, ytterligere annotert. De er visstnok nå utgitt, uvisst hvorfor. De såkalte norske våpenbøker fra 1700-tallet kan ha en viss kildeverdi forsåvidt som de bygger på tegninger av segl som nå er gått tapt. Men slike samlinger av seglteginger finnes i DRA.
Felles for disse 1700-tallets antikvarheraldiske frambringelser er at de ingen selvstendig kildeverdi har. Deres opplysningene bør i det minste kunne traderes. Fargeangivelsene er naturligvis stort sett grepet ut av luften.
Jeg må be Ringdal glemme disse våpenbokopplysngene, Segl er bevart etter Beinkt Nikolausson, datteren Ingebjørg, sønnen Torgaut og sønnesønnen Henning Guttormsson og viser at de alle hadde våpenmerket "væpnet arm" eller "væpnet, bøyd arm".

Geirr I. Leistad

Statistikk: Skrevet Geirr I. Leistad — 14 Apr 2014 15:59

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

14. April 2014 - 15:15
I wholeheartedly concur with the moderator's suggestion of 12/4. The initiator has shown himself blatantly ignorant of historical research and scientific method as well. I cannot see that he has anything wortwhile to contribute to the problem of Åsa Ulvsdatter's origins and genealogy. Lars Løberg's response is most apt. By the way, is not this forum intended to be in Norwegian language?

Geirr I. Leistad

Statistikk: Skrevet Geirr I. Leistad — 14 Apr 2014 15:15

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

12. April 2014 - 10:56
Members,

Since the initiator ("Richard") of this discussion seems to be rather unwilling to identify himself (herself?) properly instead of abiding by the forum rules, I see no other options but to issue a warning that this topic will be locked down within 24 hours unless proper identification of said initiator is done.

There shall be no room for tolerating pseudo-academic ranting where one participant rests his or her arguments solely on misrepresentation unduly suppressing other participants.

Hence, the initiator is hereby asked to state his or her true identity or remain shamefully silent.

Are S. Gustavsen
Moderator

Statistikk: Skrevet AreGustavsen — 12 Apr 2014 10:56

Middelalderforum • Re: Hustru Brynilda Toresdotter og Kisen

12. April 2014 - 10:36
Leif Erik Nilsen,

Hjertelig takk for hjelp med oppslag og gjengivelse av den aktuelle teksten. Dette at Olav Håkonsson i litteraturen er kalt væpner synes å være en noe anakronistisk anvendelse av væpner-tittelen. Det er på langt nær sikkert at "hustruers" ektefeller automatisk skal oppfattes som "væpnere". Det likefullt trolig at Olav Håkonsson må ha vært en aristokrat, gitt det sosiale nivå jo del bestemmes/tilkjennegis av ektefellens status.

Jeg kommer tilbake med mer om Brynilda.

Mvh Are

Statistikk: Skrevet AreGustavsen — 12 Apr 2014 10:36

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

11. April 2014 - 19:53
Can't seem to leave.

Ok, Lars Loberg, lets say they must be dead for years. Then, you have no choice but to agree that Asa Ulfsdatter may have been dead for years giving a possibility/probability that there was a land settlement prior to 1433 but no records of it existing today.

Statistikk: Skrevet Richard — 11 Apr 2014 19:53

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

11. April 2014 - 19:49
I missed Lars Loberg's last comment, so I reply before logging out for good.

No, not necessarily dead for years. You need to end your blanket statements. They do not serve you well.

Statistikk: Skrevet Richard — 11 Apr 2014 19:49

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

11. April 2014 - 19:46
I will reply for you to my last post.

For your convenience you will state that Arnstein Ulfson was alive in 1407 and sold land. He died soon thereafter. And you will conveniently state that Arnstein Ulfson lived to a nice age of 69. Therefore, you have proven that there was only one Arnstein Ulfson. That is a neat possibility. But, where was Arnstein Ulfson's wife and daughter. The wife may have died prior to 1419. Would the protocol not dictate that there would be an inheritance by the daughter. Why were 3 men involved with land owned by Arnstein Ulfson in 1419? Why that specific time period? Why them?

Lars Loberg, I respected your request to re-visit the 1433 diploma. I did. Now, I respectfully request that you re-visit that same 1433 diploma, studied it carefully, and then study other diplomas either as a whole or as a sample. I urge you to engage yourself in learning the importance of the subsidiaries to your research and how to properly utilize said subsidiaries.

I respect you as a historian, but you are not quite there yet as a researcher.

I wish all people the best in their genealogical journeys.

This is my last post on this forum. You may be able to locate me on other forums.

Statistikk: Skrevet Richard — 11 Apr 2014 19:46

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

11. April 2014 - 19:39
If I want to go with Anstein Ulfson being dead prior to 1419? What do you mean? The 1419 diploma would have been impossible if he hadn't been dead years earlier. You just wouldn't see it, even though it was there in front of you all the time.

Statistikk: Skrevet Lars Løberg — 11 Apr 2014 19:39

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

11. April 2014 - 19:38
If I want to go with Anstein Ulfson being dead prior to 1419? What do you mean? The 1419 diploma would have been impossible if he hadn't been dead years earlier. You just wouldn't see it, even though it was there in front of you all the time.

Statistikk: Skrevet Lars Løberg — 11 Apr 2014 19:38

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

11. April 2014 - 19:15
Alright, you want to play that game. Lets play. According to Lars Loberg comments, Arnstein Ulfson would have died prior to the year 1400. Is it reasonable to believe that his land laid dormant for approximately 20 years before someone laid a claim to it? Where was Arnstein's wife? More importantly, what about the Arnstein Ulfson mentioned in 1407(?)? If you want to go with Arnstein Ulfson being dead prior to 1419, then you have to agree that there were 2 men named Arnstein Ulfson. Now, lets take this to Asa Ulfsdatter. If you want to play that game then you must accept that Asa Ulfsdatter may have died prior to 1433 and there was a settlement of her land prior to 1433. Perhaps 1433 was a formality to clear up remaining items.

As for the comment on Lars Olof Larsen, he ASSUMED that Cecilia Jonsdatter's land was inherited by her brother's grandchildren because they owned it in 1469 (58 years after Cecilia died...or did she die then? Lars Olof Larsen proved nothing.

Statistikk: Skrevet Richard — 11 Apr 2014 19:15

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

11. April 2014 - 18:59
As I have understood it, Lars-Olof Larsson's thesis from 1964 killed the chances of Åsa being a daughter of Ulf Holmgeirsson based on information around his inheritance?

Statistikk: Skrevet Håvard Moe — 11 Apr 2014 18:59

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

11. April 2014 - 18:35
I congratulate Sigmund for instantly seeing what the blind man doesn't see.

No wonder that Richard gets mixed up in statistical errors as long as he keeps adding years to a long deceased corpus.

Statistikk: Skrevet Lars Løberg — 11 Apr 2014 18:35

Middelalderforum • Re: Hustru Brynilda Toresdotter og Kisen

11. April 2014 - 17:34
Bygdebøkene for Enebakk ligger på nettet under Nasjonalbiblioteket. Her står det (bd II, s. 581):

Hele Saltvedt, skyld 40 øyresbol, var adelsgods på 1300-tallet. I jordeboka fra 1390-åra blir det opplyst at hustru Brynhild (hustru var tittel for lavadelsdamer) hadde gitt Saltvedt i Enebakk (skyld 40 øyresbol) til korsbrødrenes kommun (felles underhold) i Oslo domkirke. Dette var Brynhild Toresdotter, som var gift med væpneren Olav Håkonsson. Han er omtalt i dokument fra perioden 1353-1390.

I 1360 var Olav og Brynhild til stede på Saltvedt. Den 6. juli dette året kunngjorde de to lagrettesmennene Bjørn Hallvardsson og Gunnar Alvsson at de var på Saltvedt («a Sadulþuæit ... i Ignarbakka sogn ...»») da Olav Håkonsson og Brynhild Toresdotter solgte 6 øyresbol i Oddnes i Land til presten Eirik i Fluberg.

Hustru Brynhild bodde i bygården Kisa i Oslo da hun gav Saltvedt til Hallvardskirken. Hun gav også 10 øyresbol i garden Gata i Enebakk til Mariaalteret i Hallvardskirken. Denne garden ble etter Svartedauden underbruk under Saltvedt.
...
Brynhild var ikke bruker på garden. Hun og mannen var jordegodseiere som på slutten av 1300-tallet bodde i det gamle Oslo. (Se om Olav Håkonsson og hustru Brynhild Toresd. i P. A. Munch: Samlinger til det norske folks liv og historie II 113).

Statistikk: Skrevet Leif Erik Nilsen — 11 Apr 2014 17:34

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

11. April 2014 - 17:31
The relevant document from 1419:
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=1781&s=n&str=

Why do you conclude that Anstein Ulfsson is recently deceased when the document is written?

Statistikk: Skrevet SMH — 11 Apr 2014 17:31

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

11. April 2014 - 16:46
1. Thank you for proving my points. I am no expert at medieval times, but I know enough to have a comprehension. I am aware of women's rights during that era. Obviously, I can see by the diplomas that women purchased and inherited land. It is also clear who purchased/inherited land, in terms of rank.

"Most Norwegian women at that time period owned something ". I would like proof that MOST women at that time period owned something. Please direct me to the primary sources so that I can see that MOST women owned something. It is never wise to make a blanket statement.

One can not intellectually compare the items mentioned in the probate pertaining to Asa Ulfsdatter with any other diploma. Again, it comes down to interpretation. My experiences have led me to realize the full complexity of textual recordings. Before I continue on this I will return to the 1433 diploma.

2. Again, interpretation. Experience dictates that the value is high. It is nothing more than your opinion that it is low. You have no proof nor logical explanation. Being honest and respectful, it comes down to my experiences as a researcher and your interpretations as a historian.

To eliminate nonsense and get to the main problem I will go to #6.

"Anstein could easily be 25-30 in 1363, still be the same Anstein Ulfson in the 1419 diploma, though never reaching the age of 70 himself"

Again I will break it down. If Arnstein was 25-30 years of age in 1363, then he would have been born 1333-1338. In 1419, he would be 81-86 years of age. Where do you get that Arnstein could not reach the age of 70 in 1419? I refuse to continue this discussion with you until you provide a satisfactory explanation for this nonsense. I am not here to waste my time.

Statistikk: Skrevet Richard — 11 Apr 2014 16:46

Middelalderforum • Hustru Brynilda Toresdotter og Kisen

11. April 2014 - 10:04
Hustru Brynilda, Kisen og Saltvedt:

Jeg har sett litt nærmere på en kvinne som opptrådte i Oslos bymiljø på slutten av 1300-tallet, nemlig Brynilda Toresdotter. Etter det jeg kan se så er det mye som tyder på at det er én og samme kvinne vi finner nevnt i kilder fra Oslo fra 1353-1390. Hun er i Biskop Eysteins Jordebog omtalt flere steder med hustru-tittel, noe samtidige brev også bekrefter. I 1369 er hun kalt hustru, i 1389 "ærlig kone" og i 1390 igjen hustru. I Biskop Eysteins Jordebog og sistenvnte brev (1390) er hun knyttet til bygården Kisen i Oslo.

I to brev fra 1360 og ett fra 1369 er hun nevnt knyttet til Saltvedt i Enebakk, hvor hun tydeligvis var gift med Olav Håkonsson i 1360 og må være enke etter ham i 1369.

Er det noen som kan være behjelpelig med å fremskaffe hva som finnes av omtale av henne under Saltvet i trykt lokalhistorie for Enebakk?

Mvh Are

Statistikk: Skrevet AreGustavsen — 11 Apr 2014 10:04

Middelalderforum • Re: For Those With Interest In Asa Ulfsdatter

11. April 2014 - 9:11
1) You don't seem to know that much about the Norwegian society in the Medieval Ages, but I'll do my best to enlighten you a wee bit. Norwegian women had a much freer position in society than in most other European places at the time. She had the right to own and the right to inherit. When married, her husband had as head of the household a right to dispose also over her property, but he could do no major dispositions over her property without her consent. As a widow she held full authority. Thus, your assumption here is false. Most Norwegian women at that time period owned something - some more and others less. Thus, by comparing the list of chattels in the 1433 diploma to similar lists in other diplomas we can get a pretty good picture of her economic status and her rank, quite the oposite of what you stated in your second statement here. Since the diploma lists chattels only, we will also face the basic question of whether she owned real estate or not. Why wasn't Elline mentioned in the diploma if that was supposed to be her property?

2 and 3) here we disagree - and will continue to do so. You have neither proof nor indications for your assumptions. The assumptions cannot be substaniated and the value of them is comparatively low.

4) My statements don't contradict, they develop. I was a bit more carefull in my assessment before consulting Vågslid's book. You should do so yourself. The book leaves little doubt about the frequency of the name Ulf.

5) Again you prove your lack of knowledge about Norway in the Medieval Ages. This is a simple matter of protocol. Protocol makes it simple to follow a man's career ower decades. There is no doubt that this is the same man in top positions for 50+ years.

6) I think you have completely misunderstood important parts of the 1419 diploma. I've asked you once before to reread and reanalyze it. Hopefully you will then realize why Anstein could easily be 25-30 in 1363, still be the same Anstein Ulfson in the 1419 diploma, though never reaching the age of 70 himself. This is, of course, theory only. We don't know how old he was or if it was one ore two persons of that name. That question will never be answered.

That much about Anstein. But there are a few things that puzzles me when it comes to your logic - or lack of such. I hope you can answer my questions:

1) Why is it so that Åsa Ulfsdotter has to be a sister of Anstein Ulfsson AND Olaf Ulfsson? What is the role of Olaf Ulfsson here, and what is that brings him, but none of the other Ulfssons or -daughters in the area into this picture?

2) If we were to make contrafactual assumptions, as you do, why is it so that Åsa's father has to be Ulf Holmgeirsson? Why him an why not any of the other, some even higher ranking, Ulfs who has a lot stronger connections to Onsøy than what is known about Ulf Holmgeirsson?

Statistikk: Skrevet Lars Løberg — 11 Apr 2014 09:11

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